SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
President Trump has once again ordered a ban on transgender troops in the military. Trump issued a similar order early in his first presidency. President Biden removed it, but on Monday, Trump issued an executive order starting the process of putting it back in place. The newly sworn-in secretary of defense, Pete Hegseth, now has 30 days to submit a plan to put the order into effect.
For more on this, we are joined by Col. Bree Fram of the U.S. Space Force. She is one of the highest-ranking transgender service members in the armed forces. She is also the former president of SPARTA, an advocacy group for transgender service members and veterans. Welcome to the show.
BREE FRAM: Thank you so much for having me, Scott.
DETROW: I should say right off the top, you're here in your personal capacity, but you're still in the military, you're still active duty. And I have to start with this. What does this mean for you?
FRAM: What this means for me and so many transgender service members is that we're back where we've been before, and we're dealing with a government policy that says we, in some way, shouldn't be part of the military...
DETROW: Yeah.
FRAM: ...Our values don't align with the military. And that's a huge challenge because we've had over almost a decade of open service where we have proved, as transgender service members, that we meet or exceed the standards the military has.
DETROW: I would like to, if it's all right with you, read a few lines from this order and talk to you about it, because it gets to what you just said. And I don't want to take it out of context, so I'm going to read a couple sentences here.
(Reading) Consistent with the military mission and longstanding DOD policy, expressing a false gender identity divergent from an individual's sex cannot satisfy the rigorous standards necessary for military service.
Skimming a few sentences here and picking back up.
(Reading) A man's assertion that he is a woman and his requirement that others honor this falsehood is not consistent with the humility and selflessness required of a service member.
And I wanted to read that because you are a high-ranking officer in the Space Force. This is an agency that Trump created. You are helping shape it in its early years. And he is saying - he's essentially saying that you don't belong, that you can't be trusted. What do you - what is your response?
FRAM: Scott, I am so excited to be a member of the United States Space Force. Our mission to protect and defend our assets on orbit, to support the Joint Force, is so important to me. It is a part of my core being. So to have my service and the service of thousands of others basically invalidated is a challenge. But how do we respond? Well, we have to respond by lacing up our boots and accomplishing the mission that we've been given.
DETROW: So you personally are responsive saying, you know what? I've been here for two decades, and this is the message. I'm going to figure out a way to do something else with my career. That's not an option for you. You're going to keep doing your job?
FRAM: Scott, I'm a rocket scientist. I know hot air when I see it.
DETROW: (Laughter).
FRAM: And I understand that it can fill the space that it is allowed to take up.
DETROW: Yeah.
FRAM: And so when arguments are made that we are somehow broken or incapable, all we can do is point to the evidence that shows otherwise.
DETROW: I want to get your response to one more line that we've been hearing as the president has issued this order, many other executive orders - that this is the commander-in-chief. This is the head of the executive branch. Whether you agree or disagree, he has the right to make a decision and put a policy in place. I mean, that is a broad concept that is key to the military as a whole. How do you think about that on this very personal particular issue?
FRAM: That's absolutely true. The president has the ability to put policies in place, as does the secretary of defense. Again, though, we swear an oath to the Constitution. That is the backbone of our service, and we will do the best we can, given the circumstances.
DETROW: I wanted to ask - looking over your bio, I noticed that you're colead on the United States Department of the Air Force's LGBTQ+ Initiatives team. Today, does that team still exist?
FRAM: That team does - no longer exists as of last week, so I am the former colead of that team.
DETROW: You know, like, we talked to you when you were in the Air Force before you went to the Space Force, the first time President Trump issued an order along these lines. And we interviewed your wife as well, and she expressed big concerns. What are the conversations like at home right now?
FRAM: The conversations at home are those of uncertainty.
DETROW: Yeah.
FRAM: We just don't know what's in store for us. And that's a huge challenge. It affects families. It affects kids. And so many transgender service members, just like any other service member, have those families and those considerations. So we have to think about it, but face what's right in front of us and make decisions on the best information that we have at the time.
DETROW: Have you had conversations with your kids about the content of this order and the message that it sends?
FRAM: I certainly have.
DETROW: Yeah.
FRAM: My kids are old enough to know what's going on, at 16 and 12. And they see these things happening, and they worry about me. And so it's a difficult time to have that talk with your kids when your kids are worrying about you, when normally it should be my job to worry about them and what I can do. So it's - it breaks my heart a little bit...
DETROW: Yeah.
FRAM: ...To have to see my kids go through this.
DETROW: That is Col. Bree Fram of the U.S. Space Force. Thank you so much.
FRAM: Thank you for having me. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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