MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
Back here in the U.S., President Donald Trump wants to make changes at the Smithsonian Institution. He signed an executive order last week titled Restoring Truth and Sanity to American History. It directs Vice President JD Vance to eliminate, quote, "improper, divisive, anti-American ideology," unquote, from its museums. The Smithsonian includes 21 museums and galleries, the National Zoo and nine research facilities. It is not a federal agency, but it does get federal funding, and some employees are civil servants. We called James Grossman for his perspective on this. He is the executive director of the American Historical Association, which promotes the work of historians in public life. Good morning, Mr. Grossman.
JAMES GROSSMAN: Good morning. And I am actually at a conference in Berlin right now. I just heard your previous conversation.
MARTIN: Well, that's great to hear. So what was your reaction to this executive order? What do you think the president's trying to do here?
GROSSMAN: Well, those are two very different and important questions. My first reaction to the executive order was, this is silly. Most of this is untrue. It completely misunderstands - it misrepresents the work of the Smithsonian institution, and it completely misconstrues the nature of historical work itself. So that's one part of it, which is it's just off base. Most of what it accuses the Smithsonian of doing, the Smithsonian is not doing. There is first-class historical work being done at the Smithsonian, and scientific work as well. That's not my field.
Your second question is, what do I think the president is trying to do? I'm a historian. Historians are very careful at attributing intent to people. But I think what is going on here is part of an agenda that's been - we've seen for three or four years in state legislatures, as well. A lot of the language in this executive order comes straight out of legislation that's been introduced in various states, much of it written by conservative foundations. Some of it comes straight from Fifth Avenue in New York. And what they're trying to do, I think, is to suggest that we as a nation are better off ignoring our history. They want to they want to erase from American history all the things that we shouldn't be proud of. And you can't do that.
MARTIN: Let me jump in here 'cause one of the examples the White House points to of what it calls divisive anti-American ideology is an exhibit at the American Art Museum called "The Shape Of Power," about sculpture, race, and identity.
GROSSMAN: Yes.
MARTIN: There are other examples we don't have room to list. People can, you know, check that out if they are interested. But what do you make of the examples the administration's cited? Is the operative idea here that discussions of race and identity are inherently divisive and, therefore, unpatriotic?
GROSSMAN: Well, first of all, what you have to do is think about what patriotism means. And for me and for most thinking historians, patriotism is helping Americans to learn what they need to learn to be good citizens and to contribute to democratic institutions. When Benjamin Franklin said, if you can keep it, he was not saying, let's keep the Republic by keeping people ignorant. You cannot ignore - directly to your question - you cannot ignore the impact of race on American economic institutions, cultural institutions, social institutions. So to say that race has been an important part of the history of the United States and other countries - that's crazy.
MARTIN: But I think the idea here seems to be that these discussions make people feel less than...
GROSSMAN: Yes.
MARTIN: ...Positive about the country and that that is divisive of the social fabric.
GROSSMAN: Right.
MARTIN: Do you have any sympathy for that idea?
GROSSMAN: I have sympathy - sympathy is the wrong word. I am interested in all ideas. And I think the important thing is to help people who have those concerns to interact with people in thinking about history, with people who have other - different understandings of American history. You cannot - you simply cannot ignore the fact - and this is not a theory; it's a fact - that the United States is divided by race. That's just a fact. And we have been divided by race for a long time. You can't ignore the fact that power has been distributed unequally in the United States in part along racial lines. So we want to understand it. That's the point. We don't want to propagandize people. We want to understand it and help other people to understand it.
MARTIN: Before we let you go, is there a sense of what might change for researchers and for people who visit exhibits or draw on the Smithsonian's research?
GROSSMAN: I hope not. The Smithsonian does good work. And I would not want to see the White House or the Congress or any other - or any of the branches of government interfere with the quality of scholarship at the Smithsonian. Smithsonian has an international reputation for the integrity of this research.
MARTIN: And before we let you - we have about 30 seconds left, so mentioning that you are overseas...
GROSSMAN: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...At a conference, so - presumably in your field.
GROSSMAN: Yes.
MARTIN: Are you hearing from members of your organization in response to this, and what are they saying?
GROSSMAN: They're saying, please help defend the Smithsonian. And they do good work.
MARTIN: That is James Grossman. He's the executive director of the American Historical Association. And as he mentioned, we reached him at a conference in Berlin. Mr. Grossman, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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